“Between the Lines” March 27, 2017

(also on iTunes)

“God doesn’t want us to walk with a limp.”   ~ Camille Cates

What to expect:

Listen in on my interview with Camille Cates from Healing Hearts Ministries International.  Studies show that 37% of professing Protestant Christian women have had an abortion.  Hear of the hope, the help, and the healing Camille has found in Christ as a post-abortive woman, and how she and others at Healing Hearts help bring healing to people just like you and me.

Full transcript:

Peter:                      Hey folks. Welcome to Between the Lines. Peter LaRuffa here. It is Monday, March 27, 2017. That music you just heard by the way comes courtesy of Brad Spence. We’re so appreciative of the time and effort that he would put into making these little jingles for me as I don’t know what in the world I’m doing when it comes to podcasting. So yeah I don’t know, comments, [00:00:30] tweet tell me if you like that, if you don’t like that, whatever but i thought that would cool so it’s not just my voice. So today on Between the Lines I have the unique privilege of interviewing Camille Cates.

Camille spoke at Fort Thomas yesterday, our Fort Thomas campus of Grace Fellowship Church. A little bit of background or back story of why I’m really doing this is because I’m a little upset. See for about I think six, maybe eight weeks, I don’t know if it was that long. At least a month, four to six weeks [00:01:00] we’ve planning on having Camille come out to church to give a brief presentation. I wanted to be there. I was so excited. I’ve had the opportunity to minister with her on a couple different times but most notably, you remember that time that we were in that, we were in a correctional facility?

Camille:                 Yeah. Yeah.

Peter:                      That was really really cool. That was the first time I got to see you in action.

Camille:                 That was fun.

Peter:                      It was really really fun and I was blown away by how, yeah just how God used you and how the kids that just had your attention, the inmates if you will [00:01:30] you had their attention and they were just waiting on every word you said. It was so powerful so I was excited to have you do this again and then what happens? Well Brad and I pulled the old switch-a-roo and I end up preaching at our Florence campus and Brad gets to hear you at our Fort Thomas campus. So I’m now getting a little bit of revenge. I don’t know on who. No, I’m just deciding I’m going to podcast. So anyway welcome to Between the Lines.

Camille:                 Thanks Peter. I’m so glad to be with you.

Peter:                      Yeah, I, so all kidding aside I would like to just follow [00:02:00] up with what you said but then there’s people like me who didn’t get to hear what you said. So, give us a little, before we get into the discussing matters and dialogue give me a little bit of what you said yesterday about your ministry, about you. Just talk. I want to hear it.

Camille:                 All right. Well I talk about Healing Hearts Ministries International. We are a Gospel centered grace driven ministry to help those who are hurting through Christ and His word for those who’ve been broken by sin. [00:02:30] So we deal with a lot of traumatic issues.

Camille:                 One of those issues is abortion. The ministry started out back in the late ’80’s as a post abortion trauma ministry and since then has just morphed over the years as we went through God’s word intensively dealing with issues of the heart, not just abortion that we found people coming to us and saying okay I went to your post abortion study even though I’m not post abortive. So [00:03:00] we have branched out into other materials to help people really connect God’s word to their real life.

Peter:                      Uh-huh (affirmative). When you say people are coming, help me understand. People wanted to do your post abortive Bible study but they weren’t post abortive?

Camille:                 Correct.

Peter:                      Why?

Camille:                 So we were sharing like I, for an example I shared my own post abortion testimony in church one Sunday and afterwards women would just come up to us and say okay I see what God’s done in your life. I don’t have an abortion in my past but I have sexual [00:03:30] abuse or I have domestic violence or I’ve been through a terrible divorce or I’ve lost a baby or whatever it is and they’re hurting and they see that we’re not just a total mess anymore and that God’s done a work in us and they want that and so we branched out into these other Bible studies as well. So …

Peter:                      Gotcha. I’ve always been, maybe you can comment to this and I have always been I don’t want to say surprised but I don’t think people realize in general [00:04:00] that even the most staunch pro-life person, conservative Christian God-fearing Jesus-loving Bible believing Christian who loves the Lord and loves the unborn, it doesn’t mean they’re not affected by abortion in some way shape or form and you’d be surprised as to how many have, have one or even multiple ones in their past. The amount of time I’ve spent at our church, Grace Fellowship Church and then at my church back in New York [00:04:30] and just interacting with different people it’s out there and I feel like it’s not something that, I think we assume it’s just out there. I shouldn’t say it’s out there. We say it’s just out there and we’re, we’re really staunch pro-life. We fight for the rights of the unborn. We want to see abortion eradicated once and for all. That’s our prayer. That’s our hope but I feel like we assume it’s not among us. It’s just among them.

Camille:                 It is. It’s in the church and the [00:05:00] statistic is that about 37% of professing Protestant Christian have had an abortion. That’s one out of three …

Peter:                      37%?

Camille:                 Woman sitting in the pew every Sunday and that’s just the women. I mean there’s, this takes two people to get pregnant and usually two people are affected by an abortion. So there are men out there as well that are hurting or confused as well. So yeah it’s in the church and it’s more [00:05:30] common than you would think.

Peter:                      Uh-huh (affirmative).

Camille:                 So I’m one of those women and I’m met many many woman in our church body over the years and I just praise God that I’ve gotten to walk with a lot of them to find healing and just some really awesome experiences. I remember sitting with one of our gals at church as she was going through the post abortion study and she just said, “Camille I have never put a pronoun to my baby that I aborted. [00:06:00] I would always say ‘the child’, ‘the abortion’” and she said now she’s like it’s “my baby”. That was my baby and so it’s really interesting what the sin of abortion does to the heart the mind the soul and she, she had never experienced that. So that was very freeing for her in allowing her to grieve her sin before the Lord but also to grieve the loss of her baby.

Peter:                      Yeah and I would assume that [00:06:30] you know, you said one in 37 woman who would claim would check off a box of being Protestant Evangelical Christians have had an abortion in their, in their past. That’s, that’s a statistic that you know.

Camille:                 Right.

Peter:                      For those of us who have, who are not post abortive and so I have two questions. Those of us who are not post abortive we don’t know that.

Camille:                 Right.

Peter:                      My, but my other concern is what about the lady who is post abortive and doesn’t know that and sits in our church? Our church has, goodness 18 [00:07:00] hundred people across two campuses.

Camille:                 Right. Right.

Peter:                      Does she typically think I’m the only one?

Camille:                 Yeah.

Peter:                      I bet I’m the only one. Nobody knows. Perish the thought that somebody would know.

Camille:                 Yes. Unless they’ve connected with other people in the body of Christ and it gets very much a feeling of isolation. I’m the only one. Everybody else around me has walked, walked the good walk and I haven’t. I have this in my past. I know when, when I first kind of came to grips [00:07:30] with my abortion I was actually at a woman’s conference and there was a, a singer there who sang a beautiful song called The Baby’s Prayer and I lost it and I just, I was openly weeping and the first thought is going through my mind is oh my gosh I’m exposed in front of thousands of people and so because I hadn’t dealt with my abortion I was, I was scared. I felt fear. I felt shame all over again wondering about my church ladies who were with me, I happened [00:08:00] to be pregnant at the time with my, our, mine and my husband first child together and my friends just blew it off as oh she’s hormonal, she’s pregnant and so, I mean that was the grace of God.

Peter:                      Yeah.

Camille:                 Anyways, so yeah I would say that the woman sitting in the pew every Sunday she is probably thinking I’m the only one here or there might be one other lady but you know we’re never going to talk about this.

Peter:                      Right. Why is it important for that lady to know [00:08:30] there are others here? Why is that important, because yeah I don’t know how, how does that affect now that she knows oh I’m not alone, one in every three, you do the math. Oh my gosh, I might really not be, like for real not be alone. It might not just be me one and that one other lady over there. There’s probably many. In our church like ours it could be dozens. Why is that information important? How does it serve that woman who hears that? Does that encourage? Does that or maybe how does it serve you [00:09:00] to know that?

Camille:                 Yeah, I think it encourages, it encourages them because you know they, they may have in their minds I have committed the unforgivable sin. Which we know is not true, Biblically, but they may feel that way and so to know that there are other people in the body of Christ that have experienced this, they know that they are not alone and I think that that gives them comfort. I know that when I first reached out to Healing Hearts [00:09:30] to go through their, their post abortion Bible study, when I got their materials I was reading that it was a post abortion study written by someone who was post abortive. That may be surprising but there are a lot of materials that are written for people …

Peter:                      Now you reached out for the help yourself is what you’re saying?

Camille:                 I did. I did.

Peter:                      Okay, so this is you reached out as someone wanting help, wanting to get it.

Camille:                 As somebody wanting help and it was comforting to me to know that the person I was going to be talking to, the person I was going to be going through the Bible study with had had [00:10:00] an abortion themselves, because it just took my guard down immediately which was so comforting and I’ve found that over the years as I’ve walked alongside woman either one on one through our post abortion Bible study or in a group that there is just that immediate wall just comes down when they know this person gets me. This person has seen and experienced much of the same trauma [00:10:30] and sin that I have experienced. So it’s just, it’s a grace of God. So I’m thankful for that.

Peter:                      Yeah. yeah. Help me understand when you are speaking with woman even as a post abortive woman does that automatically like if someone hears your you know, I’ve seen when a woman has a miscarriage woman come out of the woodwork [00:11:00] to help and to say I’ve had two. I’ve had five.

Camille:                 Yes.

Peter:                      I’ve had three and there’s, they support one another.

Camille:                 Uh-huh (affirmative).

Peter:                      Does that happen with this or is it not so much, there’s so much shame it’s still taboo?

Camille:                 I would say for the most part because they know that the person that they’re speaking with and sharing with has had an abortion that that doesn’t hinder them. In fact there was a group that [00:11:30] I was in. We had just watched Healing Hearts has a testimonial video and you can find it on our website at healinghearts.org but we just watched that as a group together and at the end of it one of the ladies leaned over and she says, I have to make a confession. I knew all of these woman were post abortive but she said I have to make a confession. I’ve had two abortions and I’ve never told anyone till just now.

Peter:                      Ever told a soul?

Camille:                 Ever and then the next lady pipes up and [00:12:00] she says well I have to confess I’ve had three and I’ve never told anybody about the other ones until just now and then the fourth lady, to my surprise, said I have had four and I’ve never told anybody until just now. So I think you know they …

Peter:                      Transparency breeds [00:12:18] transparency.

Camille:                 It’s transparency and it allows those woman to grieve and give personhood to each one of those children because when you’ve had [00:12:30] and I’ve had one abortion but I have friends that have had multiple abortions in their past and I think it’s really easy just to be like I’ve had an abortion because to say well no I, I just have had more than one is, adds shame and condemnation to them.

Peter:                      Uh-huh (affirmative).

Camille:                 So, when they’re able to find freedom in saying these are my, my babies that I’ve aborted there’s such, such grace and mercy in that [00:13:00] and so it opens that freedom and that transparency that you said.

Peter:                      Yeah.

Camille:                 Definitely.

Peter:                      Maybe you could help us understand also a post abortive woman I think, I think you would say and I would agree is in a pretty unique situation even after having come to Christ. She’s saved, she loves her some Jesus, she’s plugged into a church, she loves the Word of God [00:13:30] and maybe she has you know, we say a lot of things and we mean it. You know, nailed to the cross, lay it all down, Jesus died for that sin. He bled and died and paid for that sin fully. God is satisfied and that’s true. It’s been paid in full and we wouldn’t say that’s not enough. Like theologically we know that’s enough.

It’s totally been paid in full but personally and emotionally she might have to, maybe you would say she might have to or she does have to deal with it and think through it and [00:14:00] walk through certain steps to really get to a place of having dealt with that. That’s pretty, that, that’s pretty unique I think that not every, not every sin of our past necessarily requires that thought process. We could just leave it behind. It’s, it’s not something I want to, I want to think about. It’s one and done.

Camille:                 Right.

Peter:                      What is unique? Is it unique, are ladies in a unique position that they really should think through this or do you think it’s a lot of psychobabble? What do you think?

Camille:                 No, I think that there is [00:14:30] because, because of the heart and I’ll talk about that in a minute. Just to give you an example like, I was raised in the church. I was actually a believer, obviously a very immature believer not grounded in the word at the time that I had my abortion. So but I grew up good Southern Baptist girl. So I knew God’s grace and I knew God’s forgiveness for my past abortion but I didn’t realize or know my God as healer [00:15:00] and He is. That’s one of His attributes. He’s a healer and sin affects us. We’re, the Bible talks about the broken hearted and that God is near to the brokenhearted and I think until we can take that broken heartedness to Him we, we haven’t experienced Him as healer. Forgiveness is part of that.

Peter:                      Uh-huh (affirmative).

Camille:                 Knowing God’s grace and mercy is part of that but I think because of the heart like I mentioned earlier we have to go back [00:15:30] with the Lord because there are root things in our heart. We talk about idolatry in the Bible study and some people I mean we talk about it with other sin, if there’s idols of the heart that then we see sinful behavior because of that. Abortion’s no different. There was an idol in our heart, usually fear or control or some kind of selfish desire or selfish motive, that perpetuates choosing to have an abortion. So [00:16:00] I think a lot of women and men will just stuff that in their past so that they, we call it putting it under the blood which is true, that’s where it belongs. But then they’re walking around church and trying to serve with a spiritual limp and God has called us to run the race and I find that when we have stuff in our life that’s not fully healed, we’re not going to run well. So they don’t realize how it’s affected their marriages and their parenting and other relationships and ultimately their intimacy [00:16:30] in their relationship with God. So I think it’s very, it’s vital for the post abortive woman not just to say okay I know that I’ve been forgiven of that. I’ve confessed it. I’ve repented of that. Be healed. God wants you to walk whole and so that’s my encouragement to those who are listening who are post abortive.

Peter:                      Yeah. To, to, you’re not making less of what Christ has done on the cross by any stretch of the imagination. I don’t hear that. I know you well enough to know you’re not saying that but just [00:17:00] that in reality in our everyday life even with the full confidence that what Jesus did on the cross was enough to pay for that sin I like that picture of a limp. Why walk with a limp when you can run the race with endurance looking to Jesus as the Author and Perfecter of our faith instead of looking to Jesus with my abortion in my way.

Camille:                 Right.

Peter:                      I kind of see Him but my view is a little clouded because I have to look past my abortion. I have to look past my past when in reality we could just leave that in our past.

Camille:                 Right.

Peter:                      [00:17:30] That’s really really helpful. Let’s talk a little bit, if you don’t mind, a little bit about abortion in and of itself and the pro-life anti-abortion movement if you will.

Camille:                 Sure.

Peter:                      You, it, it was occurring to me just as you were speaking now you are dealing with well you’re dealing with people. You’re serving people, hearts lives souls but you’re kind of coming at abortion, a lot of us come at abortion from the preventative side [00:18:00] before the abortion. We want to prevent it. We want to make sure it doesn’t happen. We want to legislate against it. We want to see it stopped. It want to see it eradicated. We don’t want any babies to be murdered.

Camille:                 Right.

Peter:                      Surely you would agree with that.

Camille:                 Absolutely.

Peter:                      You’re coming at it from the other side of saying, but since it does or since it did we now need to, we now to provide help.

Camille:                 Yeah. We need to be ready to give an answer and we need to provide help to those who are hurting that make those sinful [00:18:30] choices and walk with them with grace and mercy. So yeah I heard somebody recently talk about they, a different spin and we’ll always put different semantics on things because it’s fun and catchy but I really liked it. She was talking about being pro-love and I think that gives it a better Gospel emphasis that when we come at these issues we need to come at it as image bearers of God that are dispensing [00:19:00] His love to those that we come against, so or come up and meet. So whether it’s somebody that’s contemplating an abortion we need to be pro-love and helping them find answers and have resources and all those things to make the choice of life for their baby but for the post abortive person who’s already made that choice we’ve got to bring the same hope and the same, sometimes the same kind of resources and same kind of help that we were willing to offer [00:19:30] before that choice.

Peter:                      Uh-huh (affirmative).

Camille:                 That’s the mercy of our God. So I love that, pro-love.

Peter:                      Yeah. That’s really helpful. I think also if we as the church we as Christians want to be so staunch and so strongly opposed to abortion if you don’t match that enthusiasm, that passion on the other side all the stuff on the other side is judgmentalism and shame.

Camille:                 You’re right.

Peter:                      So we hate abortion. We want it done. It’s murder. It’s [00:20:00] not a medical procedure and then if you’re quite on the other side of the abortion all that person lives with is I know Jesus pays for my sins but I’m a murderer. I know that I’m a new creation but I still have shame. I don’t know how to reconcile those and there’s that limp. Right, because we really are strong on the front end on the preventative end but if you, if you did do that, if you did make that terrible decision okay well you’re sorry about it. It was nailed at the cross. We kind of don’t want to, we’ll just make [00:20:30] like it’s all better now and then we’ll be really loud on the other end. I feel like that’s a little imbalanced.

Camille:                 Yeah. I think that it is and it’s hard. I mean people are passionate about what God’s passionate about. God is very much pro-life. I say that all the time but He’s also very much for the sinner or He wouldn’t have sent His Son.

Peter:                      Yes.

Camille:                 He did. So God is for us not against us. So wherever we are [00:21:00] in our walk with the Lord whatever’s in our past He is for us to transform us into Christ-likeness.

Peter:                      Uh-huh (affirmative).

Camille:                 So we need to be as passionate and as committed. I think committed is a good word, on the front end of helping woman choose life as we are for those who didn’t choose life and we’re committed to walk with them and we’re passionate about being grace-filled and truth-filled. I love that. You preached a sermon a while back and that has always [00:21:30] stuck in my head about Jesus being full of grace and truth and we’re unbalanced a lot of times in the body of Christ and so it’s learning, God help me to have that balance. Do I need to get a little bit more truth in this situation or do I need to extend a little bit more grace, because they really have the truth in their face and so I need to be gracious or they’re acting like this is no big deal and I need to give a little bit heavy truth here and I [00:22:00] think you know sometimes we just give blanket statements and I just feel like, I mean Jesus was such a good Communicator.

I, He’s perfect, so but I love that He asked questions a lot and I think we need to learn from that. I’ve learned from that when people are hurting or struggling ask them their story. Ask them good questions about their thought process so that you can understand what they’re thinking and where they’re coming from, where some of the error is that you can gently [00:22:30] take them back to truth and that’s what the Bible says to do it gently and we’re not always doing that. Sometimes we’re really harsh and heavy handed in our tone and in the words that we use.

Peter:                      Particularly people who, who take the Bible seriously which not every, not everybody who calls themselves a Christian does and people who are all about the Book, all about the truth, we just major on truth and we assume someone will come and clean it up with a little grace but it’s like well I’m just, I’m just [00:23:00] passionate about truth. Well congratulations on not being like Jesus because Jesus is, He’s not 50/50 and there’s not grace Jesus and there’s truth Jesus, He’s full of grace and full of truth.

Camille:                 Yes.

Peter:                      You figure out the math. He’s a hundred percent of both. That’s just who He is and that’s who we should be striving towards.

Camille:                 Yeah.

Peter:                      So, so help me think. Yeah let me come at it from this end. So I took, I don’t know that i went to the March for Life in D.C.

Camille:                 I think that, I think I remember that.

Peter:                      With Justin?

Camille:                 Yeah.

Peter:                      It was [00:23:30] a really really great experience. I’m pretty, I think I’m probably about as conservative as you can be when it comes to the issue so the sanctity of human life. I have, I’ve had pro-lifers says that’s a bit much sometimes. I don’t know if that’s good or bad, if that indicates too much passion on my part or a weakness on their part, whatever but I am, I am pro-life but talk to me about, [00:24:00] talk to me from the perspective of a post abortive woman dealing with somebody like me who is passionate about the sanctity of the unborn, the sanctity of human life. What should I be considering, I think people have itchy Twitter fingers.

Camille:                 Uh-huh (affirmative). Absolutely.

Peter:                      I think people just, just post and they just, they just feel good about it. I don’t think I’m above that. I don’t. I try [00:24:30] to not be that way. I’m sure there’s parts of, I’m sure if you looked through the feeds of my social media I’m sure that some of it’s there. I’m trying to not be that way. What should I consider as I want to get truth out as I want people to know this is not a medical procedure. This is, this is the murdering of the unborn. This is something that is rarely depicted, we won’t get into news and but I mean rarely depicted because you see people you know you see [00:25:00] refuges on tires you know grasping for their breath of air as they try to get to another country.

Camille:                 Right.

Peter:                      You see people being persecuted and when it comes to abortion you see people in lab coats. So it’s just, it’s sanitized.

Camille:                 Right.

Peter:                      So you want people to realize guys we’ve gotten used to this. This is terrible, all of which is true all of which I’d think you’d agree with.

Camille:                 Uh-huh (affirmative).

Peter:                      However, what should I take into consideration as I want people to realize that. [00:25:30] How should I consider the post abortive woman who maybe does realize that and should that affect what I say now that I should go light on truth? Should I, go, yeah. What do you, help me, help me think through that lens. Yeah it’s super easy.

Camille:                 I’ll try. Yeah. Thanks Peter for that one.

Peter:                      You’re Camille Cates.

Camille:                 My wheels are spinning. Now as you were talking what kept coming in my mind was you know we need to focus on the beauty of God’s [00:26:00] Truth and when I say that what I mean is talking about life Biblically using Biblical text. So when you’re, you’re looking at passages that talk about children are a fruit of the womb and they’re a reward from the Lord, passages like Psalm 139 where it talks about how God knows us intimately and how he knits us together and …

Peter:                      He knows our thoughts from afar.

Camille:                 Yeah and I think diving into those Scriptures and [00:26:30] maybe pulling out nuggets of those and then asking a good question, if He is the Author of life, that’s how I come at it as a post abortive woman when I’m talking about pro-life issues. I’ll say, I’ll talk about Him being the Author of life and that these little ones in our womb are image bearers and that’s why it is wrong to take life.

Peter:                      Uh-huh (affirmative).

Camille:                 So you know I think coming at it from the way that God [00:27:00] sees it which is beautiful and that He is the Author and that gives us no right to be the taker of life, from birth to you know, conception to death He is sovereign over that and so I think the more that we can get people to know God and see Him versus knowing our issue, like this is our issue. I am pro-life. It is wrong to do this. It’s a very negative “put up your dukes” kind of way to come [00:27:30] at it and I think you’re going to find people putting up their dukes and giving you a one-two punch right back but when you lay out the beauty of what God says in His word about life it’s hardly arguable.

Peter:                      Hardly arguable, meaning?

Camille:                 You can’t, how can you argue when you see in Scripture that He’s, He’s the Author of life. He is knit together in the womb. He makes in the secret places.

Peter:                      Uh-huh (affirmative).

Camille:                 Off, open it up for [00:28:00] questions. After they’ve looked at Biblical truth what, what questions do you have with that and then walk with them through other parts of God’s word that answer those questions. So that’s usually how I come at addressing some of those issues when I see them on social media or in an article. So …

Peter:                      Yeah. What would you say about, you know we’ve spent the last two weeks here at our church talking about mercy. In the context [00:28:30] of our, we have this We Are Family sermon series and we’ve been looking at mercy. Brad and I used two different texts. Brad was from Luke, I did John 8 yesterday and where does mercy come into play when it, and what a broad question Camille – that’s so not fair. But there’s got to be some, when I think of how I have treated [00:29:00] and continue to sometimes think I may be better in my actions but sometimes my thought process may not be all the way there and God, I feel like God probably knows that.

Camille:                 Uh-huh (affirmative).

Peter:                      Treating this issue with the contempt and what I think to be righteous anger oftentimes lacks mercy for the people involved. How, [00:29:30] I’m not even sure how to ask this. This is real folks. This is just, it’s unscripted. What do you want me to say? How should the fact that I’ve been treated with mercy by God that I’ve been recipients, that we who are Christians have been recipients of His grace that all we like sheep have gone astray, Isaiah 53:6 each to his own way but the Lord upon Him Christ the iniquity of us all. How should that affect [00:30:00] me and balance out in your opinion the passion we have, the hatred we have for what God hates but then also treating people as the human beings that we’re fighting for who are outside the womb?

You know, because I think oftentimes and we sit, you and I spoke a little before this, we’re so passionate for the people inside the womb but we don’t give a rip about the post abortive woman because she’s always born and made that decision and the pro-choice side is really [00:30:30] just the opposite. They’re so passionate about the woman who’s outside of the womb but doesn’t give a rip about this, it actually thinking along the same lines it doesn’t give a rip about the person inside the womb. How does, how, help me think mercifully passionately against it but also mercifully, particularly as the lady who’s post abortive where should mercy come into play, as I think pray post live life?

Camille:                 Uh-huh (affirmative). So I’m thinking about being merciful not just that I am the chief [00:31:00] of sinners and not just I’ve had an abortion but also that to know that doctrine of the depravity of the human heart, like I am depraved and I think it’s helped me as I’ve learned more Biblical doctrine on that topic that I’m capable of anything, given the right or the wrong circumstance and situation I’m capable of doing any and committing any sin.

Peter:                      Right

Camille:                 [00:31:30] It’s only by God’s grace that he’s kept me from some of those things. Personally just a little bit of my story I mean my abortion was kind of took place in a tragic circumstance. I had been a single mom, I was sexually active as a teenager. I had gotten pregnant. I felt like one of the statistics. So I had chosen life.

Peter:                      Uh-huh (affirmative).

Camille:                 The first time I had a daughter [00:32:00] and felt like I was a statistic but a young man had left that relationship and so here I was you know being very supported in my choice for life by my church and my family and I had got involved in another relationship and became pregnant again and that young man and I were contemplating marriage and were moving towards that but he had committed [00:32:30] a grievous sin against me and while he was watching my daughter one night he sexually assaulted her and shook her to death and …

Peter:                      You said shook her to death?

Camille:                 Shook her to death. Legally, where she was legally brain dead. So sexually assaulted her and then through the trauma to try and get her to be quiet I think shook her to death and God has shown me so much through that and through forgiving [00:33:00] what most people would say that is a horrible horrific sin. I can’t tell you how many people told me that he should burn in hell, he should rot, he’s horrible he’s despicable. Yet here I am carrying his baby and I, I make the decision to have an abortion and God showed me through that passage, He used the passage in Matthew 18 to really show me we’re both people in need [00:33:30] of mercy and what he had done to my daughter was really no different to what I did with the abortion of our baby and so not everybody’s going to have an experience that that’s radical, like you’re both I mean, you’re both murderers. You’re both, you both have taken life.

You both have hurt an innocent life and, in so many violent ways that a violent, because abortion is violent [00:34:00] but God used that in my heart to show me like Camille you, you are not above him. You both are recipients need to recipients of mercy. So that’s one thing that’s helped me I think for somebody who is pro-life and they are very passionate about it to remember Christ died for you just like He has made a way for a post abortive [00:34:30] man or woman to become saved. He made that same way for you and to not extend that mercy is to be merciless to the one that you’re trying to speak, speak to. So …

Peter:                      Yeah. I think that’s really really helpful and I really appreciate you sharing that level of detail about what the Lord has done in your life. Hey Camille quickly before we leave speak to the, speak to the post abortive woman now who is [00:35:00] maybe on the fence about contacting Healing Hearts, maybe heard you yesterday maybe even is listening to this right now but is just like yeah but still I don’t know. What would you say to her before we go?

Camille:                 I would encourage her not to go one more day and not to say this is a, this isn’t a good season for me. Reach out. Get help. God’s word is so rich and there is so much available to [00:35:30] us in it but a lot of times we don’t know where to go but I promise there’s so many rich treasures in His word that can address the heart and not only your abortion but other areas of your heart as well and He wants us to run the race. I want to cross the finish line in a full sprint Peter if I can. I don’t know who’s with me but if you’re listening and that’s in your past I want to encourage you, you may have a limp [00:36:00] and not even know it and I want us to be able to run the race and finish well. So I would encourage you to do that.

Peter:                      Cool. Well I really appreciate it. Thanks so much Camille both for speaking yesterday at our church and sharing a little bit about your ministry there but now taking this extended time I have now yesterday I only heard you for five minutes. Now I got to spend 37 minutes and six seconds. So I’m winning.

Camille:                 Thank you.

Peter:                      It’s not a competition but I’m winning.

Camille:                 Thanks for having me.

Peter:    [00:36:30] Yeah. No, but seriously please do check out healinghearts.org click on that get help now tab and see if the Lord might have this be used in your life to help you run the race with endurance and run well and run fast and run hard because there really is no need to limp. Jesus Christ did not die on the cross for sinners like you and like me so that we could limp through this life and get to heaven. He wants us to run. [00:37:00] So it’s my hope and my prayer that you would contact healinghearts.org click on get help now and see how you might be ministered to by what God is doing through this awesome, awesome ministry. I’m going to post a link to Camille’s the website that Camille mentioned and that I just mentioned, healinghearts.org on my, on my website. So you can log onto peterlaruffa.com and you can get all the pertinent information from this podcast there. Thanks so much for being with [00:37:30] us. Hope you have a blessed day.

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